The paradox of tolerance

[Deleted member 42253]

Illogical and irrational, put practical.

 

[Greg the Grouper]

I'd consider referring to this as a paradox rather hyperbolic. It frankly seems like a simple bell curve to me; as you allow viewpoints less tolerant by nature further into public discourse, these viewpoints begin to dominate public discourse. As these ideas gain more traction, as more people begin to buy into and espouse them, the more likely it is that they'll be pushed and enforced, and by their nature, this results in a cessation of discourse outside of these ideas.

To resort to an extreme circumstance for illustration, it's like trying to find a compromise between person A, who wants to live, and person B, who wants to kill person A.

 

[Deleted member 619]

I'd consider referring to this as a paradox rather hyperbolic.

Indeed. It isn't even a contradiction. To tolerate intolerance is intolerant.

This is one of those things where people think they've found a paradox based only on a word, which just goes to show the humongous pitfalls inherent in casting thoughts in natural language.

 

[Deleted member 42253]

The magic of language I guess, or rather, the danger of it.
Its really hard to argue for tolerance and acceptance, as soon as religious or ideological fanatics come into play, even thought it should be self evident, that there can be no tolerance for intolerance.

Being aware of this is becoming more important now than it ever was, since somehow, the hateful people have managed to manipulate the public discourse in a way, thats throwing me off quite a bit. For example I heard someone recently argue for his right "To hate whoever he wants" and how expressing that is his freedom and protected by Freedom of Speech.
That was so nonsensical and insane, I was at a loss for words. I guess its time to revert back to the way that was fought in the 90ties ... "Shut up you sorry excuse for a human being and total waste of oxygen.".

Weirdly enough, freedom and freedom to be a completly and utterly reprehensible human being, are being equated currently.

 

[Led Zeppelin]

Illogical and irrational, put practical.

I like this. People preach about Tolerance because it gives them a sense moral superiority without actually having to do anything. All in all, it is just an excuse for intellectual laziness.

 

[Deleted member 619]

Being aware of this is becoming more important now than it ever was, since somehow, the hateful people have managed to manipulate the public discourse in a way, thats throwing me off quite a bit.

Funnily enough, on another forum I recently resurfaced on, I've been engaged in a discussion with somebody I know to be a caring, erudite and thoughtful guy, based on over a decade's experience of him, and he's saying all the things about 'perpetual victimhood' and how whites are functionally discriminated against, and is flabbergasted that people of colour don't trust the police sufficiently to want to join up.

It's knocked me for six. I can only assume he's fallen prey to the idiotic Piers Morgan propaganda.

 

[Greg the Grouper]

It's knocked me for six. I can only assume he's fallen prey to the idiotic Piers Morgan propaganda.

Just curious; is there something specific that you're referring to?

 

[Deleted member 619]

Oh, just his long-running rhetoric about free speech and perpetual victimhood, which is a drum Morgan's been beating for as long as I can remember.

 

[Greg the Grouper]

Gotcha.

Well, sad to say, it wouldn't be propaganda if it weren't persuasive.

 

[Deleted member 42253]

@hackenslash Yeah, thats the worst .. something similiar happened to a family member of mine and thats really hard to understand and deal with. Though in that case it was the tabloit press, since my family member was a bit older.

What gets people depends a bit on the age I have noticed, for the older ones its tabloits and the Murdoch Media(and yeah, Pierce Morgan for some reason, he is really popular with older people), as well as facebook(Gotta keep in mind, we are talking about a generation that has been taught that everything they read is true). For the younger ones its usually youtube.

I also heard of some that got "radicalized" by Tiktok .. and I have no freaking clue how that can even work .. I mean, how do you interpretativly dance propaganda?

Point being, we though we had won against this kind of bs in the 90ties and now its coming back, might be time to do what James O Brien did and start supporting organizations that fight against Nazis and white supremacists again ... as well of course those, that fight against religious extremism. *points towards Aron* And, of course, get a bit more activ ourself ... then again, I have gotten too old and fat to march and protest .. goddamnit.

 

[Sparhafoc]

Oh, just his long-running rhetoric about free speech and perpetual victimhood, which is a drum Morgan's been beating for as long as I can remember.

And now standard mantra in alt-rightdom.

 

[Sparhafoc]

Funnily enough, on another forum I recently resurfaced on, I've been engaged in a discussion with somebody I know to be a caring, erudite and thoughtful guy, based on over a decade's experience of him, and he's saying all the things about 'perpetual victimhood' and how whites are functionally discriminated against, and is flabbergasted that people of colour don't trust the police sufficiently to want to join up.

I know who you mean, and why it's surprising given the many years... but Mike_L has fallen far, far, far further to the point of actually linking to white supremacist neo-Nazis. The internet is the 21st century version of the dangerous wild with creepy shit lurking in the bushes looking to prey on stragglers.

 

[Greg the Grouper]

That's something I worry about a lot, with my nephew; he likes to use Youtube, and I imagine it's only a matter of time before he discovers the pipeline.

 

[Deleted member 42253]

Gave it some more thought and I remember a couple of winning tactics from the 90ties.
Punk and rock music was very effectiv, as was comedy. Mainly because the neo nazis have zero talent in the arts and are definitely not funny, so completly defenseless against that approach. Btw. same goes for religion.

Problem is .. I doubt we can bring punk back .. and I honestly do not want to. On the other hand, bands could follow the tradition of Pearl Jam for example and be a bit more political, comedians at least, are doing what they can.

@psikhrangkur Maybe try to innoculate your nephew against it, with culture, play some music from the 90ties with a political message when he is around or watch some comedian making fun the alt-right and other extremists.

 

[Deleted member 619]

I know who you mean, and why it's surprising given the many years... but Mike_L has fallen far, far, far further to the point of actually linking to white supremacist neo-Nazis. The internet is the 21st century version of the dangerous wild with creepy shit lurking in the bushes looking to prey on stragglers.

It wasn't Mike I was talking about, but IC. Mike surprised me, but our level of interaction was never that high. We tended to gravitate to different areas of the forum.

 

[Sparhafoc]

It wasn't Mike I was talking about, but IC. Mike surprised me, but our level of interaction was never that high. We tended to gravitate to different areas of the forum.

Aye, I know you were talking about IC - but in those few years away, Mike's fallen a lot further than IC.

 

[Deleted member 619]

 

[Sparhafoc]

I'm afraid to say it because I know it's stupid, but I am an idealistic sort.

I think we tolerate intolerance as much as we can* and not a Planck length longer.

It is self-defeating because in a situation where the power is shifted and the intolerant now make that decision about the tolerant, the favour will not be returned. All it takes is that shift in power and it all falls down. But idealism, slippery slopes, and who polices the police and.... yeah, we all know.


* I really wanted to write 'as is tolerable' but didn't want to sound trite and yet still went on to write a bunch of aphorisms!

 

[Deleted member 42253]

Yeah, might have become a little too nice and polite to people with vile views and much too scared about sounding like sanctimonious pricks.

What I noticed recently, is that this lack of being combative has been working out pretty badly against people with completly moral and benign positions. Take me for example, I am a pacifist and completly against war, and for some reason, when I criticise the killing of completly innocent people during one of the myriad of conflicts in the last 20 years, people go after me agressivly and somehow try to make out that position to be vile and evil. And I honestly have no clue how to deal with that, while being polite at least.

I mean, I am no expert debater, but you would asssume, that a position like pacifism would win on its merits, without having to deploy any tricks. I blame that we have created a culture were we got a toxic understanding of what "being strong" means and we are mistaking being colossal assholes for strenght.

 

[Sparhafoc]

I mean, I am no expert debater, but you would asssume, that a position like pacifism would win on its merits, ...

I think that assuming any position would win on its merits is problematic as it assumes that all participants are engaging in good faith. One can be idealistic about values, but one shouldn't be idealistic about one's fellows.